What started out easily enough as an interview with The Joy Formidable this year ended in a fantastic journey. This past spring, I sat down with Ritzy and Rhydian of The Joy Formidable to have an open and frank discussion on the state of affairs in their world and the music business in general. With that accomplished, I had a few potential takers for this interview from a few new online outlets and was thrilled at one of those prospects and positively energised about the interview. Good, now off to writing and finally to the submission.
With files sent, I waited for feedback on the article. Nothing. No response from the publisher for a month, which was frustrating because I had also agreed not to take my work to other publishers. Finally, I received an email detailing that my work was “under review” and that they’d let me know soon. Fine, I’d waited a bit longer before placing another enquiry as to when the interview would to be published. The silence in the weeks that that followed indicated to me that I’d just learnt a lesson.
I didn’t stay mad very long and this was sure as hell wasn’t going to stop me from finding a way to repackage the interview — perhaps telling it from a different perspective or narrative. Plus, I had places to go and people to see in the meantime — and that gave me time to think. So another story began.
In the days to follow, I was introduced to North Wales, its uncommonly friendly people, the villages and town, and an abundance of nature that surrounded us in every direction. Seeing my response, Mike was quick to remind me that any romanticized notion was inherently flawed, but I knew what I was experiencing was something slightly different. I found myself in the heart of a culture as defined by its location as it is by its people. If there’s a spark in this band that sets them in motion, then that’s what I was experiencing in this country — an open land where you can stand on a hilltop overlooking the sea and shout across it till your heart is content. There was something very honest and truthful about it all, and it left very little question for me as to why this area has been an inspiration to artists over the centuries.
Ritzy has spoken of the long walks in the Clwdyian hills and the paths of Pen-y-Cloddiau and Moel Fammau as being relief and inspiration to their songwriting. Now I finally understood it; experiencing this, it was like hearing their music as though for the fist time. I reckon I understood them more as artists, too, and understood some of their inspiration and why they’ve recorded where they have. There’s a decent and partially nomadic quality to Ritz and Rhydian that’s connected to this land: rugged, fearless, and unhindered by obstacles. There’s a strong sense of independence, too. It’s an inherent emotional quality that defies expression beyond the music itself. Maybe that’s the way it should be. As the sun set on us, “Chwyrlio” was playing in my head and the truth of it continued to play into the night:
Mae nhw’n teimlo’n annigonol…”
“Turn the dial on my words,
I can feel them fall short…”
Yes, my thoughts exactly. “Fy nghyfaill anweledig yn fy nghwsg” kept me awake till early the next morning. Such a lovely haunt to finally be aware of something that you’d known all along.
Upon returning home the following week, an email informed me that my interview would not be used. Really? An interview with this incredible trio and they didn’t want it. Wankers. I instantly knew someone who would want to publish it, though I felt an explanation was in order first, maybe some modesty as well. I had only hoped that the delay wouldn’t leave me with a stale interview. On the contrary, and especially for the band’s benefit since they’re still very much in tour mode, our conversation remains fresh.
Reading back through the interview, I am now keenly aware of so many things that were buried deep in my own mind. It’s a refreshingly honest and open conversation — liberating in fact. Finally, I’m now convinced that real insights on culture can’t be found in two paragraph digital reviews. So I request that you indulge me the length of this interview. To you I say, “Diolch a byw heb ofn.” I’m only too happy to share the experience.
Peter Dysart: I’m sitting with the Ritzy Bryan and Rhydian Dafydd of the world-based The Joy Formidable at Chicago’s Vic Theatre.
Ritzy: [Laughs]
PD: Your Records Store Day Release is up coming entitled “A Minute’s Silence.” Knowing your often-hectic schedules, I wondered what would you actually do with a minute’s silence?
Ritzy: I actually had one today because we all went to the audiologist to have our hearing tested and to get new molds for on stage. So, when they fill your ears with the foam — that is absolute audio silence.
Rhydian: Not me, my ears are ringing.
PD: [laughing] Me too.
Ritzy: You didn’t have the impressions today. It was very nice. I just wanted to sleep [laughs]. I could have closed my eyes and gone somewhere wonderful [laughs again].
Rhydian: I’d like to be back in Portland, Maine by the water there. Casco was really beautiful.
Ritzy: There are so many moments on stage, especially when we’re playing when that place, that area, that forest is so indented in my memory — where I can see the view outside the cabin window or remember the little room where I recorded. I can see myself sitting on the seats outside or by the fire pit. It’s really bizarre that I can see all this on stage virtually every night. It’s kind of a mixed feeling for me because it takes us back to a moment in time that was very serene.
The energy of that experience was great and different from the normal chaos of touring. Both can be enjoyed in different ways but you hanker for that complete sense of being able to contemplate, catch your breath, and have a connection to people in a way that’s different to the transient and quick that the tour sometimes throws up. Touring can be great as well because of the variety and there are so many people passing through your life quickly. But definitely, when we’re on the road and playing every night, I get a hankering for that place where I felt spiritually and emotionally complete.
Rhydian: It gives us a chance to reflect.
Ritzy: Yeah, it’s quite nostalgic as well.
PD: I introduced you as ‘world-based’ — is that accurate?
Ritzy: Very much world-based [laughs]. It’s certainly not a depressing type of homelessness. There’s definitely something quite liberating for both of us in not worrying too much about the responsibility and bills of having a London flat. We were there for all of three weeks last year, weren’t we? So it’s really nice not having a permanent base. We have so much touring ahead that it’s kind of exciting because you view everywhere you travel now with that attitude of “is this somewhere I could stay a little bit longer when I revisit next?” You know?
PD: Any place in particular?
Rhydian: There are places that accord with us quite differently. You’d like to live out and have some utter peace and quiet.
Ritzy: I’m a complete hermit. My idea of bliss is literally being in the middle of nowhere. If I were going to go and disappear now for a month, you’d probably find me in the desert with a few goats [laughs], being somewhere blissfully happy [deep laughs].
Rhydian: I’m maybe a bit more of a people person.
Ritzy: [Still laughing deeply] Which doesn’t take too much.
Rhydian: No too much, yeah. I’d like to tap into a bigger city but not feel claustrophobic. I think variation is the thing for me, actually, which is what’s nice about touring, you know. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having your base and coming back to it. The set up of your home is someplace where you have your memories and it’s done in the way you want it. It’s nice to have but you don’t have to pine after it.
Being on the road, going to a different place, and meeting people is great. We get asked a lot if it feels like “Groundhog Day.” It does if you allow it to be like that. If you fucking party every night and don’t get up morning and enjoy the day, you end up going straight to the venue for the next gig. Definitely, it’s your choice isn’t it? But there’s so much to see that you just have to go out and find it.
Ritzy: Well, apart from Topeka, Kansas on a Sunday. I did get out and try to see it but there wasn’t a whole lot going on, I have to say [laughs].
PD: Any interesting creature sightings this tour?
Ritzy: Remember when I told you that I didn’t see anything in Austin during SXSW? I had a window of about two free hours in the middle of all that chaos to go see a band and I went to find a turtle instead. I’m going to go find something that lives in the river. [laughs all around]
Rhydian: Ritz went swimming with manatees. That was beautiful. Ritzy’s mum was with us, and she’s kind of a panic in the water anyway. She didn’t want to come in the water so I went ahead and there was this big manatee looking right at me, and I said, “hello.” That was the closest I got.
Ritzy: I had one suck on my toe. That was the highlight for me. I think it thought my toe was something edible.
PD: They’re so gentle though.
Ritzy: Magnificent creatures.
PD: Let’s jump from animals to an adjacent topic. I know you love nature and “Wolf’s Law” is full of animal references, but contextually your compositions are more of a study of cultures, people, and relationships. It’s more anthropology than it is getting back to nature. Talk about the narratives that have been weaved into some of these songs.
Ritzy: That’s interesting that you say that. It’s true. ‘Maw Maw’ in particular has a trance-like tribal dance quality where there’s a lot of repetition, and you place yourself in a meditative state. Lyrically, the song is quite a scathing commentary on consumerism, so the repetition is reflective of that sheep mentality that accompanies consumers.
Ritzy: It’s a song to brainwash the already brainwashed.
Rhydian: And the mouth is then very much associated with the idea of consuming. In a consumer world, all we want to do is eat and consume without thinking.
Ritzy: Lyrically, there are moments of poignancy because it absolutely contrasts against someone who has completely the reverse condition: [someone with] no appetite for life who is completely depressed. Again, a lot of these songs dip into this theme of encouraging, shaking, and reawakening life in someone who is very depressed and lost. Definitely, the resolve of “Maw Maw” is calling more to somebody who has lost the appetite for life.
PD: There are always deeper meanings in your songs that ultimately find a more natural and holistic expression.
Rhydian: I do think that growing up in North Wales and being creatures of nature, especially for Ritz living out in the country, that animals, symbols, folklore, and mythological creatures find their way into your imagination. And I don’t mean ‘nice’ nature, but nature as a reflection on humanity. We often look to nature for symbols that can be evocative in a song — and far beyond. We have a strong visual side, too. I frequently have produced the artwork, but Ritzy and I are always jamming on visual idea. She has a superb, idea-driven imagination. These ideas don’t stop at the lyrics but dig deeper into what we create. It’s all to do with the imagination and we always see things in visual terms that can impact the album’s art work, video direction, and more — which is why we like to have a hand in everything we do.
PD: All of these ideas then take shape in total form through a kind of symbology not too dissimilar from Jungian archetypes — with aspects of the human persona and psyche.
Rhydian: I think that’s what we did with “Wolf’s Law” as well. We’ve adapted the pure description of this medical term and infused it with the symbol of the wolf and what it connotes. We like manipulating things to create what this album is all about. On a simple level, maybe subliminal as well, we experimented with the language, which is something that’s hard to talk about in an interview. You know, if you ask Bowie what his lyrics are about, he might tell you he took them out of a fucking newspaper because they sounded good together. There are elements sonically of that practise on this album as well.
PD: From a storytelling perspective, this album is richly cross-pollinated, infused with metaphor, symbols, and even an oral tradition, such as on ‘The Leopard and the Lung.’ I’ve discover that one of the longest-lasting and best attributes of this band is its continuing effort to create music that draws artistically from so many creative sources and influences, combining visuals and verbal ideas into the final production. Maybe you don’t think too much about it.
Ritzy: It’s always an interesting thing to talk about the efforts we’ve made. Yeah, we’ve asked more questions and dissected it a little more this time that we’ve ever done before. It is definitely striking when you do start to look at every song. There’s an awful lot of breath on the album and absolute cohesion to it all. But because it has a background of being written on the road, you can see moments, little snapshots and colour, from literally waking up to a difference scene every day and having different people and circumstances crossing your path, including tracks that were harkening back to Portland Maine. All the tracks are rooted in who we are as individuals and our own story or particular influence. In the case of “The Leopard and the Lung,” I wanted to pay tribute to somebody who we found out about during our time in Portland, Maine.
Rhydian: Sometimes it could easily feel like it’s too much for some people to grasp the subtleties of detail but we have smart fans. Even if they only catch half of what we do, we think we’ve achieved something good. These days, artists and fans alike are so obsessed with how things sound that we need to more than occasionally invest in what’s being said. That’s the bigger picture. It’s becoming a cultural thing and we know many of our fans will make that investment with us.
PD: For even the casual listener who has this album, I think they’re likely hearing something they know is there even if they can identify specifically what that is. The content is very rich that the fans keep coming back for more.
Rhydian: Those are the albums I’ve always enjoyed as well — the kind you have to listen to over and over again to hear something new each time.
PD: I cut my original commentary short on in the album review, but this album so reminded me of records that required full immersion. You’d listen to the music whilst pouring over every inch of the album art, the lyrics, the notes and everything to examine it in full detail as the hours pass by. That was the experience that made for a great album and what makes “Wolf’s Law” a great album, too.
Rhydian: You have it on vinyl. It that how you listen?
PD: Oh, yeah.
Ritz and Rhydian: Cool. It always sounds and looks better on vinyl.
Ritzy: You have to be present, waiting for the needle to hit. That’s how I was as a kid. I’d want to listen to it all because you’d be locked into it. Even if it wasn’t that great of an album, you’d continue to listen to it because you wanted the vinyl to do its mechanics — to come to the end of the first half. You didn’t want to mess with the pin or skip a track. It didn’t feel natural to skip tracks. You were more trained to let an album breath and to listen to it in total.
Rhydian: I like looking at the album when I’m listening to it. It’s so much richer than carrying on with your other work on your computer.
PD: It’s a commitment. You have to have the patience to sit down and listen to a full album. We’ve had a previous conversation regarding this band creating discourse with listeners. You want to challenge them.
Rhydian: I’d like to think people can appreciate more than one dimension in our music, and not just listen to the sounds and production of it. We like it when people become more questioning of things, you know? Maybe the purpose of a record is to be slightly unlistenable. That in itself is a simple, rebellious push; making people feel uncomfortable.
We had a little bit of that on the first record and when we play live, we’d prefer for fans to hate us than to express nonchalance. We hate apathy. We want people to fucking be there because they really like what we do. Sometimes it’s hard to live like that in a band, because we all need to make a living. At the same time, we’re striving for the fans to be invested in to every aspect of what we do from the lyrics to the songwriting to how we perform live. We just want to deliver on that total experience for them. For me, the great artists are those who deliver on all that. Sometimes we think fans miss some of that because they’re focused on one great pop song and aren’t given the chance to experience an artist who can deliver more than just the pop song on the radio.
Everything on the radio today is like Mumford and Sons rehash and everyone hates Mumford and Sons at the moment, don’t they? Mumford actually had some good fucking songs but this industry has fucking rehashed all of that now because it knows that this current trend sells right now. Probably not in six months, so let’s fucking saturate the airwaves now.
Ritzy: That happens in every era.
Rhydian: Yeah, but has it always happened quite so blanket, across the board, and so fast?
PD: Who were Mumford and Sons two years ago?
Ritzy: Yeah, I think that’s difficult. Even with artists who have this very fast track, there definitely seems to be this kind of culture now of enjoying their fall from grace as well. That moment in the spotlight is shortened even more, which breeds yet another culture of “grab it while you can,” because there’s little expectation of permanence.
Rhydian: It’s also important to say that there’s another part of that as well where everything is watered down to saying the right things in interviews and having the correct answers to everything for the record companies. It’s making the whole process of getting signed to a label, getting your album out there, and dealing with the press almost like a game. There’s a certain element to that, but great artists seem to cut through that and fucking say what’s on their minds. Fans recognise this and will say, “Yeah, they’re speaking the truth.”
Ritzy: Do you think there a general cynicism that nobody believes that you have a talented artist now that has absolute depth, longevity, and something to say? Are we so cynical that we believe we’re not going to have icons any more?
Rhydian: I definitely think there’s a cynicism there. It’s like that Bill Hick sketch where everything is turned into a marketing message on the latest trend. “I hear da-ta-da is in this year.
Ritzy: [laughs]
Rhydian: It could be anything; being a cunt is in this year. It’s like that, isn’t it? We’re consumed with everyone being the A&R sheep kind of thing. But I’m still encouraged with people forming their own opinions, but there are still a hell of a lot of sheep out there.
PD: At the A&R level, people aren’t taking enough time to really listen to the new bands or to hear the music because their too focused on finding the next replacement that sounds like the one that’s hot right now, or their looking for the next trend. Instead of giving bands an honest listen and critical review, you get the feeling that it’s just a cursory listen before a label is attached to something and filed away — sometimes not to be heard again. Good bands fall through the cracks.
Ritzy: We’ve lost so many of our peers. We’re still a very young band in that we’re only two albums in, and yet so many of our peers, so many other bands who have toured with us or that we’ve opened for are now gone. And I mean they’ve been some really good bands — bands that have done something different as well. We’ve seen more and more of them not able to sustain themselves. Obviously, that happens, it’s a difficult dynamic to maintain. Some people go into music and they don’t love it enough or they haven’t quite got the band mates they need to pull together and push through the bullshit. Some bands have definitely been bogged down by the industry and just don’t have the patience or tolerance to bother with it any more.
PD: Not to mention the luck that’s involved with it all.
Ritzy and Rhydian: You’re right. Absolutely.
PD: Back when I first heard you talk about “Wolf’s Law”, I recall some of what we talked about — the elements of nature, the global essence — but I was somewhat unprepared for just how personal it was and how there’s so much of personal experience infused in this album. You all share relationships, family connections, and the influences they bring to you. To me, that perspective has kept you all fairly grounded in reality and has likely been a big reason for your continuing success.
Ritzy: I think there are bands that rely on a bit of angst. It’s almost like it’s the confrontations, the egos, and the clash that keep some bands together — creating some sort of dust storm that can be quite exciting for fans, critics, and people around the band. But when we step back to celebrate this ‘unit’, the three of us, we definitely feel like there have been so many moments where we’ve pulled together. We’ve had to be really close with our blinkers down. It’s always been about the music, but there have been moments where we’ve had to have our armour fully up and the three of us inside saying, “fuck all of this,” you know. And off we go.
Rhydian: That’s one thing I’ve been thinking about recently. I don’t think people quite know enough about this band, or realise that about us, especially in the states. We’ve had quite a non-traditional path in our development, and the way we grew in the UK was to not get signed early and to not get caught up in the hype. I think there’s always been an element of fight in this band, from getting the money to travel here to getting gigs, and we’ve had to look to ourselves for much of that. We’re tenacious people and I’m sure that comes from our families as well. You need to be tenacious and fucking thick skinned.
Ritzy: Sometimes we’ve wanted to completely rebel against the system.
PD: How was it having your mum and dad briefly on the tour?
Ritzy: It was very emotional on a lot of levels, because they’re divorced and have been separated for a long time. We’ve been through a lot as a family and we’ve not had an easy relationship for a long time. So there’s part of me that’s completely confused that they’re travelling together, but happily confused. They’re out together and going to shows.
Rhydian: The three of you we’re obsessed with music from the beginning, weren’t you?
Ritzy: My parents are absolutely the reason why I am where I am today. It’s because they’ve always supported me and given me my freedom. They always made it clear that I could follow a dream with question, and they’ve always been very open about me following my path and failing along the way. The world has always been wide open. Go enjoy it, go and grab it.
PD: I can’t imagine you doing anything else than what you’re doing now. That goes for you, Rhydian and Matt.
Rhydian: Me neither.
PD: Since we’ve been talking about family, let’s talk about “The Turnaround.” I told you this song left me gutted the first time I heard it, and I really can’t recall that many songs ever having such an emotional impact on me. It’s such a meaningful way to preserve your grandfather’s memory, especially with that Orbisonian delivery.
Ritzy: Absolutely, very much. Well…[extended pause]. I think losing him when we did brought such a different atmosphere to the recording studio. We were two weeks into the session in January when he passed away. He’d been ill for a long time, so I always felt worried about leaving the UK, and every opportunity we got to spend together we always talked like we were not going to see each other again. And that’s something I’ve felt with all my family because we’re away from everyone for so long that you want to make every moment count.
So before that happened, we were feeling so good about making the record in Portland, Maine, and [pointing back and forth between herself and Rhydian] you and me really felt like we were connecting. It all felt so great and then that news came in and it was a difficult blow. The grief and the guilt really made me want to do something for him, since I couldn’t be there physically. I was at peace with not being there for the funeral; we could have been anywhere in the world. But it definitely pushed me into a place where I wanted to listen to all the records that I remember him having on when he was cooking in the house. Also, there were those songs by Al Johnson, and the Barber Shop. I remember the first movie I ever went to see with him was “Snow White,” so I wanted to go back and listen to that soundtrack. I think what I’m trying to explain in this middle point in the studio is that his passing opened a new fork in the recording road.
The track is very much about a celebration of him, and of him as a symbol of being a really honest, hardworking person; someone from that generation who had given their entire life to the family and had gone into work each day just to make ends meet and nothing more. Definitely he was a dreamer, too. He would have liked to do all manner of things with his life, but he had a family very quickly and took on that responsibility as the breadwinner. So he left all his dreams behind expect for having that wonderful family to celebrate. So there’s a celebration of that mentality and of his sacrifice.
I should also say that he always loved this band and was always a genuine fan of what we were doing, in spite of me being his granddaughter. He always used to listen to our records and he had a scrapbook [laughing] — he was kind of an obsessive fan. Yeah, so there’s a poignancy that he didn’t get to hear this record. He was so excited about the album. “When is the next record, when is the next record?” He’d ask me about it all the time. So that was my second thought — why didn’t I finish it sooner? We started recording six months before.
Rhydian: That track probably took the longest to record, as well. We had to score all the strings, so it was a labour of love. It definitely is a modern take on a Orbison-type song.
PD: Now that you have the track, how do you approach performing it on tour?
Rhydian: The reality is that I don’t think we could afford to do a full production for an extended period of time. Maybe for some special shows, but until then, we could perform it in all manner of ways.
Ritzy: Yeah, there’s definitely that…
Rhydian: [laughing] We always bite off too much. Fuck it.
PD: Is there a worry about being able to recreate it faithfully?
Ritzy: With that track, because of how dear it is to me and because of how it was written with the orchestra very much leading the way, I do find it difficult to think about playing it any other way.
PD: True, and I’m sure that it’s scary to think about it, too. Conceivably, you could take the pre-recorded orchestral tracks and Matt could manage triggering the sequences on stage.
Ritzy: We definitely could. It was one of the finest moments of going into the studio and feeling that track come to life. I was always so nervous about it. You can score it, imagine it, hear a midi version of it, and start to hear all these sections come together — but you’re still getting kind of an abstract view of it. I was absolutely so nervous when we finally heard all the sections live — would it be what we had wanted it to be? One of the best highlights of my career, so far, was hearing it all be played together, and I was saying, “Fuck, we did it. We pulled it off!”
PD: I rarely admit to having favourite songs, but this is one of them.
Ritzy: [quietly] Mine, too.
PD: And here I was going to ask Matt about his technical and electronics genius, but since he’s not here…[laughs all around]. Ritz, what were you saying to me about a laser harp?
Ritzy: It’s made, it’s here, it’s with us, and we were going to use it for this tour. It’s amazing what [Matt] has built. We were finally going to incorporate it into the last gig but it broke during the sound check, and Matt had to diagnose and fix it.
Rhydian: It’s pretty much there. You never know with Matt, because he genuinely enjoys geeking out on the technology.
Ritzy: He’s a complete mad scientist.
Rhydian: Sometimes he takes his time doing stuff. We can ask him, “Matt, is it done yet?” “No, not quite yet,” as if he likes dragging it out and building stuff.
PD: It’s his work of art — you can’t rush it.
Ritzy: I hope by next week it’ll be up and running again. Then we’ll have to decide where to put it on stage [laughing]. What’s been wonderful about this tour is that Rhydian has been playing piano, and with the gong we have a busy backstage. On a larger stage, this is all wonderful, but it’s just the logistics of it. How are we going to wheel this fucking thing in?
Rhydian: Matt is playing different things. I’ll be doing a laser harp, pedals and bass, playing the piano and singing — it’s like… [laughs].
PD: Just go with the neural implants; it’ll be easier.
Ritzy: Yeah.
PD: So the harp sounds are activated when you break the laser light plane and that triggers the sound?
Rhydian: It could be a sample of a real harp.
Ritzy: Or anything you want.
PD: You’ll use that on “Maw Maw.”
Ritzy: “Tendons”, too.
Rhydian: We’ll see how natural if feels.
Ritzy: We got talking, we wanted to dabble and thought it would be an interesting way to incorporate some of the instruments from the album in a way that was different, but still within our dynamic. You saw when we had our harpist — we definitely want to have her back out, or possibly bring different instrumentation into the set. But for this round we want to keep it simple.
PD: Your working through the songs now with the trio on this leg and then you maybe you’ll build on that with different instruments. Maybe even play “The Turnaround.”
Ritzy: Yeah, definitely this year, we’ll get it out.
Ritzy: Can’t possibly be… [laughing].
PD: She’ll be very happy to read this [laughs all around]. Now before we wrap up, I have to confess that I really missed the fact that it’s your voice, Rhydian, and not your bass on the intro of “Tendons.” That was very clever. Did you run your vocals through a fuzz tone?
Rhydian: Basically, yeah, that and an octave effect.
Ritzy: We messed with that synthetic vocal and voice sound for quite a while. We had combs and grease-free paper. [laughing] We tried all sorts of things.
PD: Like a kazoo, and it worked.
Ritzy: Yeah, we knew exactly what sort of sound we wanted, so we wanted to see if you distorted it from that as a core vocal sound if we could get the right mix.
Rhydian: It’s a vocally driven album full of those vocal textures.
Ritzy: Yeah, on the first record as well, though not as obvious.
PD: Fantastic. Thanks again for some deeper conversation. Let’s do this again, maybe near the end of the year.
Ritzy: Absolutely. See where we are with the recording process and everything. It’s been a pleasure.
